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Concerning majority governs morals, that is silly. So if the majority starts burning "so called witches" is that right? Or if the majority starts killing Jews, Kurds etc. then that is ok? Don’t think so. If the majority starts saying it is ok to murder are you going to do it? Is our thinking and morals really subject to someone else’s opinions? Do you do what others tell you to do because they say it is right? I would hope not!
Also, I am willing to bet that if you found a tribe that has had absolutely no contact without the outside world and you asked them if it was ok to murder their wives, unananimously it would be no! So, where again did this moral law come from? It’s not from society because society has no impact on those that don’t associate with it. So please someone answer this question that i proposed in another thread that is again and again avoided.
Majority morals has worked since the dawn of time. There will never be a majority calling for the burning of all witches because such a morality would be anti-progressive, given that anyone could logically be called a witch and burned. Majority morals relies on two things. Firstly, the majority decision of the populace. Second, a logical argument for such a morality.

For example:

Stealing is considered immoral because we all have the concept of ownership, and if something that is owned by someone is taken away, the owner is at a loss. Loss is considered a bad thing, so stealing therefore should be considered a bad thing as well. The majority seem to agree with this argument, so it is passed as a moral value.

Likewise, murder is considered immoral because of the loss of life (possibly the greatest asset) to the victim.

It should be stated that there are two distinct groups of morality. Instinctual morality, Social morality. Instinctual morality could best be described as anything that threatens your natural instinct. If someone attacks you, your survival instinct is being threatened, and you perceive such an attack as immoral or wrong.

Of course this only works on a personal scale. If someone has just killed a person and is being beaten to death by an angry mob, they might see this as an immoral action whilst the mob might see it as a justified one. This is where social morality comes into play, which is where majority decision rules. What if the victim was the only doctor in a village? The murderer has perhaps caused the deaths of many by killing one, and such a crime affects more than just the victim.

sardog98 says that society cannot possibly have an impact on morality because some people do not associate with it. He seems to think that society is defined as large groups of people, perhaps even countries. The village that is untouched by the outside world could very easily be described as a society, and as such could very well be subject to a number of similar moral laws. There are still several tribes that treat women as unequal simply because they are weaker than the men.

Having said that, your entire argument about such a tribe is a logical fallacy (the argument from personal incredulity) so it doesn't prove anything.
Do you find many primates killing their mates? At the earlier stages of human evolution, I am talking about the first 2 million years or so, we lived in small groups and families. Murdering one another would not be good for the survival of the group's genes. Humans that lived in caves in the last 500 000 years, also lived in small groups and if you start killing, the others will at least exclude you and therefore you will not be able to pro-create hence your 'murderous' genes will not be passed on. Simple.
There are dozens of documentaries on the altruistic behaviour of humans and other animals. The best documentary I have seen on the subject is 'Nice guys finish first' by Richard Dawkins (the anti-christ).

If you are going to defend human morals through your bible then I dont think you have a foot to stand on. As for killing witches then, well, what did the christians do during the dark ages? Kill a lot of witches!!! because people were scared that they had something to do with the devil.

sardog98 Wrote:
Concerning majority governs morals, that is silly. So if the majority starts burning "so called witches" is that right? Or if the majority starts killing Jews, Kurds etc. then that is ok? Don’t think so. If the majority starts saying it is ok to murder are you going to do it? Is our thinking and morals really subject to someone else’s opinions? Do you do what others tell you to do because they say it is right? I would hope not!
Also, I am willing to bet that if you found a tribe that has had absolutely no contact without the outside world and you asked them if it was ok to murder their wives, unananimously it would be no! So, where again did this moral law come from? It’s not from society because society has no impact on those that don’t associate with it. So please someone answer this question that i proposed in another thread that is again and again avoided.

Christians dont kill because the Bible tells them too. People kill because of fear, not the Bible. Find me a verse that says for the Christian to kill and that it is apart of our conduct. Still searching? Thats right you wont find one because God calls us to live in peace with one another. So read the Bible and stop assuming that just because someone calls them self a Christian that makes them one. To be a Christian you must Repent, and oh if you want to know Christian conduct read 1 John. Thats right its says a Christian cannot continue in sin (habitual). Repeted murder sounds habitual to me!
By the way you say I dont have a foot to stand on by defending morals through the Bible whats your verse or assumption to claim this? You dont have one with any credibilty.
I can not name the verse of by heart and I've lost the sheet which tells me the verses, but I think its in Leviticus. A man who masterbates, someone who eats unclean food and someone who wears more than one type of material are to be stoned to death. These are the ones off the top of my head. Found them quite quickly, did'nt I?
Dagda's right. One cannot follow the biblical laws or you would be taking slaves left right and center, stoning aldulterers, and subjugating the crap out of women. Because, in the bible, women are inferior (Eve screwed them all over, Original Sinner!!!). So if you wanna take the bible as your moral compass, that's your business, but you better pick and choose or you're gonna be in a heap of trouble with the law.

sardog98 Wrote:
Concerning majority governs morals, that is silly. So if the majority starts burning "so called witches" is that right? Or if the majority starts killing Jews, Kurds etc. then that is ok? Don’t think so. If the majority starts saying it is ok to murder are you going to do it? Is our thinking and morals really subject to someone else’s opinions? Do you do what others tell you to do because they say it is right? I would hope not!
Also, I am willing to bet that if you found a tribe that has had absolutely no contact without the outside world and you asked them if it was ok to murder their wives, unananimously it would be no! So, where again did this moral law come from? It’s not from society because society has no impact on those that don’t associate with it. So please someone answer this question that i proposed in another thread that is again and again avoided.



Morality is a vague term and can become too ambiguous to speak of in a technical sense. Therefore I shall operationalize the term, defined as “the particular practices, precepts, and customs of people and cultures” (Di Leo, 2002). This definition reflects the source of morality which is the culture, a product of a social group. This also alludes to the origins of what we would call “morals” within an evolutionary framework:

Quote:
Affiliative behaviors probably evolved in vertebrates, from basic patterns of parental nurturance. Kin selection theory suggests that the altruism that was directed from parents to offspring could easily evolve to be directed to other related individuals. Once group living organisms had reached a certain level of complexity, altruistic acts could be directed toward non-kin with the understanding that the assisted individuals would return the favor. Gratitude, sympathy, trust, suspicion, and guilt can be viewed as adaptation that facilitate the functioning of the highly evolved reciprocal altruism system of humans (188) (Palmer and Palmer, 2002).


The appearance of such behaviors was advantageous for grouped primates. There is strength and safety in numbers. For our ancestors, this became a major survival tool. Those who displayed traits conducive to survival of the group were kept, those who did not were ostracized most likely and their genetics were not kept in the gene pool (Evans and Zarate, 1999). Because of this selection of group-beneficial predispositions in behavior, we have inherited those predispositions in our genetics and they are usually expressed in what we would term “universal morals” – something many often cite as evidence of a deity, however it is explained well by evolutionary means (Barkow, Tooby and Cosmides, 1992). There has been research which supports a biological basis for morality such as universal taboos like incest (Lieberman, Tooby and Cosmides, 2003).

The formation of a social group aids in the ability to repel predators, help in the acquisition of food resources and the protection of offspring. Within the formation of these social groups, interaction is impossible to avoid. The groups became essential for survival of our ancestors and to help ensure that the species would continue to grow and thrive.

However, living within groups can have its consequences:

Quote:
...with lots of other conspecifics around you, all with the same food preferences, competition becomes more intense. Squabbles for scare food resources become common (Evans and Zarate, 63).


The consequence of this problem was the formation of alliances with others which share common interests or goals. This splintering of the larger social unit gave way to a huge social group which is divided into smaller groups of individuals in alliances to achieve the same goals. This was the beginning catalyst for the formation of what we have become to know as morals.

Steven Pinker (2002), in his book The Blank Slate comments on three features of the group of cooperators:

Quote:
One is the cognitive wherewithal to figure out how the world works. This yields know-how worth sharing and an ability to spread goods and information over larger territories, both of which expand opportunities for gains in trade. A second is language, which allows technology to be shared, bargains to be struck, and agreements to be enforced. A third is emotional repertoire – sympathy, trust, guilt, anger, self-esteem – that impels us to seek new cooperators, maintain relationships with them, and safeguard the relationships against possible exploitation. Long ago these endowments put our species on a moral escalator (168).


As with all other social groups, hierarchies would form and the most dominant individuals would keep control and delegate responsibilities. The enforcement of the traits of which the group would find acceptable behavior became the enforce “guidelines” of being part of the group. These traits of behavior within this group would find those people of like mindedness and as a subsequence, of like genetic predispositions to that behavior. Reproduction carried out within these groups would preserve these hereditary predispositions for a certain behavior.

From the evolutionary/biological standpoint of genetic heredity, certain behaviors will persist in a population as long as the individuals carrying those genetics are able to reproduce viable offspring. Within the formation of groups, our ancestors found that it could better protect young and provide a safe place in which to reproduce. Those of the predispositions toward an isolationistic lifestyle and one away from the protection of a large group would soon find themselves at a loss. Without the aid of others, a loner would find it harder to find food, defend themselves from predators and harder to find a mate. With these overbearing problems, those who were prone to isolationism found themselves quickly excluded from the gene pool. This natural selection promoted the genetics for those who harbored tendencies toward social behaviors.

The sectionalization of the groups along with other environmental factors such as migration and geographic isolation contributed to the formation of the differentiated cultures as well as their differentiated morality and from that their moral codes of their cultures. The late Carl Sagan (1997) commented on such saying:

Quote:
Moral codes that seek to regulate human behavior have been with us not only since the dawn of civilization but also among our pre-civilized, and highly social, hunter-gatherer ancestors (217).


The common formation through social groups and the division of smaller sub-groups into like-minded individuals provided the common ground for some of the moral items which seem to remain the same throughout different cultures and ethnic backgrounds. Items such as murder being considered “bad” or “immoral” seem to be universal among all cultures, which can be attributed to those early social groups.

The behavioral tendency to view murder as “wrong” was a trait of those ancestors to promote the general welfare of the group. Those who killed others in the group would quickly find themselves ejected from the group if not killed in return, the “eye for an eye” response which may have also originated either within the groups or interactions between two groups.

Common behavior is not just found in human groups but also with other primates as well. Robert Pennock (1999) agrees with the common genesis of morality stating:

Quote:
...the commonalities we find with other primates is persuasive evidence that the intellectual and emotional characteristics that allow moral action in human beings are the result of our evolutionary development (115).


Social interaction also gave rise to means of cooperation and what is considered “good” behaviors within the group.

Quote:
One of the most widely studied forms of pro-social behavior is altruism, or helping behavior that is performed voluntarily for the benefit of another person with no anticipation of reward (Walster and Piliavin, 1972 ).


Such behaviors within groups would be seen as beneficial and encouraged. Reciprocal altruism is a major player in social interactions of groups. The idea of reciprocal altruism is that if one does something for another, that individual is expected to do something in return for the other. By this practice a sort of trading of favors came about which promoted beneficial interactions not only within a group but between separate groups as well.

From the exchanging of favors comes a problem however, that known as the “free rider” problem, or those who accept favors but do not return the favor. As a consequence, a modified version of the exchange of favors arose.

Quote:
Free riders who have refused to do return favors can be punished by refusing to do any more favors for them. Cooperators can be rewarded by continuing to help them when they need it. This simple strategy is called ‘tit-for-tat’. We punish free riding by refusing to cooperate (Evans and Zarate, 68-69).


Along with these social items the concept we know today as reputation also arose in respect to interactions. Those who had a “bad reputation” would find it increasingly difficult to form alliances and receive favors. This helps to eliminate the free rider problem and make certain that only “good” individuals prosper in the group. We can still see the group dynamics of reputation at work in smaller social groups – a quick peek at our evolutionary history in action (Panchanathan and Boyd, 2004).

As the groups prospered and continued to grow and perpetuate themselves, change over time added to the complexity of the basic social interactions and “guidelines” of what is proper behavior within the group. The tendencies towards a socially aligned behavior were continually promoted and those against the group attitude were ostracized, basically speaking of course.

Much in the same vein, Freud (1961) mused:

Quote:
...human life in common is only made possible when a majority comes together which is stronger than any separate individual and which remains united against all separate individuals (Freud 49).


Civilization progressed, human groups became large populations and the interactions became ever harder to keep track of in such large groups. However, with the “guidelines” still intact, societies decided to go further and began to set a sort of official “moral rules” within their populations. With the commonalities of their ancestors still with them, the “universal” ideas show up in most cultures and the variation can be seen as a product of the cultures special environment and their specific needs in order to promote the welfare of the population.

The behavior of how people interact with each other has become an extremely complex thing. Entire fields of science have been founded just to study the different aspects of the human social animal. Just as long as there have been social groups, there have been ideas of what is seen as “good” behavior or what is “best” to do within the group. The traits that led to what we call morals are nearly as old as the social aspect itself but it actually only a necessary product of the social construct.

The perseverance of certain behaviors thought of as “universal morals” is in actuality the result of natural selection and group interaction, and also explains why modern humans are so deeply social in nature. Some moral “guidelines” became actual codes of some cultures and even eventually evolved into what we think of as laws. Which, just like morals, have a common beginning but differ greatly in many aspects from country to country.

The human is often referred to as a “social animal”. From that social aspect came the genesis of morality. Therefore such a view might add credence to the assertion that man is a “moral animal” as well. Just as our social behaviors have evolved and become complex, so have our moral codes, guidelines and laws, which are often so complex that they come into contradiction with each other.

Also, in other animals we see evidence of sharing, protection of kin, instances of reciprocal altruism et cetera. We also have observed culture among other primates as well such as chimpanzees – our closest living relatives – and orangutans (van Schaik, Ancrenaz, Borgen, Galdikas, Knott, Singleton et al, 2003). Behaviors such as social conformity to the group which most would see as a uniquely human social trait has also been documented (Whiten, Horner, and de Waal, 2005).

As to the popular alternative view that morality is produced from a deity, such a view is called the Divine Command Theory. Divine Command Theory (DCT) basically states that what is good is whatever God commands it to be. Therefore, religion is necessary for morality. Morality is not contingent on religion or God(s). The whole idea is contradictory as pointed out as early back as Plato's dialogues.

The question is, as paraphrased from the Euthyphro dialogue is: (given there is/are God(s)) Does God command something because it's good or is it good because God commands it?

What of items that lay outside of those commands or condemnations? How about cannibalism for survival?

Arthur (1984) also points out:

Quote:
If we say that it is simply God's loving something that makes it right, then what sense would it make to say God wants us to do right?" and he also points our that saying God is good is meaning, "God does what he pleases".


Theodore Schick (1997) examines the problem further by paralleling an unlikely detractor of DCT, Leibniz:

Quote:
...if things are neither right nor wrong independently of God's will, then God cannot choose one thing over another because it is right. Thus, if he does choose one over another, his choice must be arbitrary. But a being whose decisions are arbitrary is not a being worthy of worship.


Even John Hick (1973) concedes the solution to the problem itself is fallacious:

Quote:
Perhaps the most promising resolution of the dilemma is a frankly circular one. Good is a relational concept, referring to the fulfillment of a being's nature and basic desires. When humans call God good, they mean that his existence and activity constitute the condition of man's highest good. The presupposition of such a belief is that God has made human nature in such as way that his highest good is to be found in relation to God. Ethics and value theory in general are independent of religion in that their principles can be formulated without any mention of God; yet they ultimately rest upon the character of God, who has endowed man with the nature who fulfillment defines his good.


For many though, the independence of something from God's influence is to take away from His supposed attributes of omnipotence, omniscience and so on. Steven Cahn (1996) sums it up saying:

Quote:
To act morally is not to act out of fear of punishment; it is not to act as one is commanded to act. Rather, it is to act as one ought to act. And how one ought to act is not dependent upon anyone's power, even if the power be Divine.


There is also instances where what one might consider universally immoral in societies in the majority are considered "good". One example of a gross divergence from what we consider to be moral is pointed out by Howard Bloom (1995), when he remarks on the ethnographer Napoleon Chagnon's observations of an Amazonian people called the Yanomamo which Chagnon referred to as "the fierce people":

Quote:
The pride themselves on cruelty, glorying in it so enthusiastically that they make a great show of beating their wives. And the wives are as much a part of this viciousness as the husbands. A spouse who does not carry enough scars from her husband's blows feel rejected and complains miserably about her unbruised condition. It is a sign, she is certain, that her husband does not love her.


In our society, spousal abuse is considered morally wrong and legally punishable. However, in the Yanomamo's society it is a show of affection no matter how odd we see it.

All this would suggest that we have an ingrained propensity toward certain behaviors we have labeled "moral" yet in our complex societies these templates are modified and vary from one group to another. This can be analogized with the idea of providing a general template to start with and then each group puts it's own variation upon that foundation which is what would be referred to as a relativistic view of morality.

References
(In order of appearance):

Di Leo, J. (2002). Morality Matters: Race, Class, and Gender in Applied Ethics. Boston: McGraw-Hill.

Palmer, J. and Palmer, L. (2002). Evolutionary Psychology: The Ultimate Origins of Human Behavior. Boston: Pearson Education.

Evans, D. and Zarate, O. (1999). Introducing: Evolutionary Psychology. Duxford: Icon Books.

Barkow, J., Tooby, J. and Cosmides, L. (1992). The Adapted Mind: Evolutionary Psychology and the Generation of Culture. New York: Oxford U.P.

Lieberman, D., Tooby, J. and Cosmides, L. (2003). Does morality have a biological basis? An empirical test of the factors governing moral sentiments relating to incest. Proceedings of the Royal Society of London - Series B, 270, 819-826.

Pinker, S. (2002). The Blank Slate: The Modern Denial of Human Nature. New York: Viking.

Sagan, C. (1997). Billions and Billions: Thoughts On Life and Death at the Brink of the Millenium. New York: Ballantine Books.

Pennock, R. (1999). Tower of Babel: Evidence Against the New Creationism. Cambridge: MIT Press.

Walster, E. and Piliavin, J. (1972). Equity and the innocent bystander. Journal of Social Issues, 28, 165-189.

Panchanathan, K. and Boyd, R. (2004). Indirect reciprocity can stabilize cooperation without the second-order free rider problem. Nature, 432[/u], 499-502.

Freud, S. (1961). [i]Civilization and Its Discontents
. James Strachey (Trans.). New York: W.W. Norton & Co.

van Schaik, C., Ancrenaz, M., Borgen, G., Galdikas, B., Knott, C., Singleton, I. et al. (2003). Orangutan Cultures and the Evolution of Material Culture. Science, 299, 102-105.

Whiten, A., Horner, V. and de Waal, F. (2005). Conformity to cultural norms of tool use in chimpanzees. Nature, 437, 737-740.

Arthur, J. (1984) Morality, religion, and conscience. In Di Leo, J. (2002) Morality matters: Race, class, and gender in applied ethics. New York: McGraw-Hill.

Schick, T. (1997) Morality requires God ... or does it? Free Inquiry 17(3).

Hick, J. (1973) Philosophy of religion. (2nd ed.) Englewood Cliffs: Prentice-Hall.

Cahn, S. (1996) Religion reconsidered. In Bowie, G., Michaels, M. & Solomon, R. (Eds.) Twenty questions: An introduction to philosophy. (3rd ed.). Orlando: Harcourt Brace.

Bloom, H. (1995). The Lucifer principle. New York: Atlantic Monthly Press.

sardog98 Wrote:
Christians dont kill because the Bible tells them too. People kill because of fear, not the Bible. Find me a verse that says for the Christian to kill and that it is apart of our conduct. Still searching? Thats right you wont find one because God calls us to live in peace with one another. So read the Bible and stop assuming that just because someone calls them self a Christian that makes them one. To be a Christian you must Repent, and oh if you want to know Christian conduct read 1 John. Thats right its says a Christian cannot continue in sin (habitual). Repeted murder sounds habitual to me!
By the way you say I dont have a foot to stand on by defending morals through the Bible whats your verse or assumption to claim this? You dont have one with any credibilty.


Exodus

22:18 Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live.

22:19 Whosoever lieth with a beast shall surely be put to death.

22:20 He that sacrificeth unto any god, save unto the LORD only, he shall be utterly destroyed.

31:14 Ye shall keep the sabbath therefore; for it is holy unto you: every one that defileth it shall surely be put to death: for whosoever doeth any work therein, that soul shall be cut off from among his people.

31:15 Six days may work be done; but in the seventh is the sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD: whosoever doeth any work in the sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death.

35:2 Six days shall work be done, but on the seventh day there shall be to you an holy day, a sabbath of rest to the LORD: whosoever doeth work therein shall be put to death.

Leviticus

20:2 Again, thou shalt say to the children of Israel, Whosoever he be of the children of Israel, or of the strangers that sojourn in Israel, that giveth any of his seed unto Molech; he shall surely be put to death: the people of the land shall stone him with stones.

20:9 For every one that curseth his father or his mother shall be surely put to death: he hath cursed his father or his mother; his blood shall be upon him.

20:10 And the man that committeth adultery with another man's wife, even he that committeth adultery with his neighbour's wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death.

20:11 And the man that lieth with his father's wife hath uncovered his father's nakedness: both of them shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.

20:12 And if a man lie with his daughter in law, both of them shall surely be put to death: they have wrought confusion; their blood shall be upon them.

20:13 If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.

20:14 And if a man take a wife and her mother, it is wickedness: they shall be burnt with fire, both he and they; that there be no wickedness among you.

20:15 And if a man lie with a beast, he shall surely be put to death: and ye shall slay the beast.

20:16 And if a woman approach unto any beast, and lie down thereto, thou shalt kill the woman, and the beast: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.

That’s just a few examples, it goes on and on and on.

I have heard from many that there is good and evil. And many also say there is a moral law to differentiate between good and evil, correct. But if you posit such a thing such as moral law you must also posit such a thing as a moral law giver but that is what you are trying to disprove, right. Therefore you self distruct your own thesis because if there is no moral law giver there is no moral law. If there is no such thing as moral law there is nothing to differentiate between good and evil. If there is no good and evil then what are you trying to prove. You see your right back at the beginning with no further knowledge.

Secondly, if you section down the physical reality to its smallest part you end up with the physical entity of quantity which in itself does not have the reason for its own existance. Where did it come from? Science doesn't know.

Thirdly, where there is information, logic says that prior to that information there is an assumed mind. Like for example if you went to the moon an saw McDonalds wrappers you would assume someone created it. Just like if you found a dictionary you wouldnt assume it was created by a exploding printing press. Take the composition of the human enzyme which is the building block of the gene which is the building block of cell. The possibility of the enzyme coming together by random is 1 in 40000 to the tenth power . That is more atoms in the entire universe. The mathematical and timeline chance is ZERO.

Just watch this clip : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VyNqw6umR...re=related
Solid Squid. I applaud you for looking up scripture about killing but PLEASE look at the context. If you want I will explain it to you. Again doesn't apply to Christians, old covenant not new.
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