Atheist Forum

This is my first thread so if this has already been discussed, my apologies.

Several months ago I was sent this email about a lecturer and a student discussing Religion. I asked for the origins of this debate and pointed out several errors. However my opponent dodged the questions.

I want your opinions on it.


Science vs. God
 
"Let me explain the problem science has with Jesus
Christ."   The atheist professor of philosophy
pauses before his class and then asks one of his new
students to stand. 
 
"You're a Christian, aren't you, son?" 
 
"Yes sir," the student says. 
 
"So you believe in God?" 
 
"Absolutely." 
 
"Is God good?" 
 
"Sure! God's good." 
 
"Is God all-powerful? Can God do anything?" 
 
"Yes." 
 
"Are you good or evil?" 
 
"The Bible says I'm evil." 
 
The professor grins knowingly. "Aha! The Bible!" He
considers for a moment.  
 
"Here's one for you. Let's say there's a sick person
over here and you can cure him. You can do it. Would
you help him? Would you try?" 
 
"Yes sir, I would." 
 
"So you're good...!" 
 
"I wouldn't say that." 
 
"But why not say that? You'd help a sick and maimed
person if you could. Most of us would if we could.
But God doesn't." 
 
The student does not answer, so the professor
continues. "He doesn't, does he? My brother was a
Christian who died of cancer, even though he prayed
to Jesus to heal him How is this Jesus good? Hmmm?
Can you answer that one?" 
 
The student remains silent. 
 
"No, you can't, can you?" the professor says. He
takes a sip of water from a glass on his desk to
give the student time to relax. 
 
"Let's start again, young fella Is God good?" 
 
"Er...yes," the student says. 
 
"Is Satan good?" 
 
The student doesn't hesitate on this one. "No." 
 
"Then where does Satan come from?" 
 
The student : "From...God..." 
 
"That's right. God made Satan, didn't he? Tell me,
son. Is there evil in this world?" 
 
"Yes, sir." 
 
"Evil's everywhere, isn't it? And God did make
everything, correct?" 
 
"Yes." 
 
"So who created evil?" The professor continued, "If
God created everything, then God created evil, since
evil exists, and according to the principle that our
works define who we are, then God is evil." 
 
Without allowing the student to answer, the
professor continues: "Is there sickness? Immorality?
Hatred? Ugliness? All these terrible things, do they
exist in this world?" 
 
The student: "Yes." 
 
"So who created them?" 
 
The student does not answer again, so the professor
repeats his question. "Who created them? There is
still no answer. Suddenly the lecturer breaks away
to pace in front of the classroom. The class is
mesmerized. 
 
"Tell me," he continues onto another student. "Do
you believe in Jesus Christ, son?" 
 
The student's voice is confident: "Yes, professor, I
do.." 
 
The old man stops pacing. "Science says you have
five senses you use to identify and observe the
world around you. Have you ever seen Jesus?" 
 
"No sir. I've never seen Him" 
 
"Then tell us if you've ever heard your Jesus?" 
 
"No, sir, I have not." 
 
"Have you ever actually felt your Jesus, tasted your
Jesus or smelt your Jesus? Have you ever had any
sensory perception of Jesus Christ, or God for that
matter?" 
 
"No, sir, I'm afraid I haven't." 
 
"Yet you still believe in him?" 
 
"Yes." 
 
"According to the rules of empirical, testable,
demonstrable protocol, science says your God doesn't
exist. What do you say to that, son?" 
 
"Nothing," the student replies. "I only have my
faith.." 
 
"Yes, faith," the professor repeats. "And that is
the problem science has with God. There is no
evidence, only faith." 
 
The student stands quietly for a moment, before
asking a question of his own. "Professor, is there
such thing as heat?" 
 
"Yes," the professor replies. "There's heat." 
 
"And is there such a thing as cold?" 
 
"Yes, son, there's cold too." 
 
"No sir, there isn't." 
 
The professor turns to face the student, obviously
interested. The room suddenly becomes very quiet.
The student begins to explain. 
 
"You can have lots of heat, even more heat,
super-heat, mega-heat, unlimited heat, white heat, a
little heat or no heat, but we don't have anything
called 'cold'. We can hit up to 458 degrees below
zero, which is no heat, but we can't go any further
after that. There is no such thing as cold;
otherwise we would be able to go colder than the
lowest -458 degrees. Every body or object is
susceptible to study when it has or transmits
energy, and heat is what makes a body or matter have
or transmit energy. Absolute zero (-458 F) is the
total absence of heat. You see, sir, cold is only a
word we use to describe the absence of heat. We
cannot measure cold. Heat we can measure in thermal
units because heat is energy. Cold is not the
opposite of heat, sir, just the absence of it." 
 
Silence across the room. A pen drops somewhere in
the classroom, sounding like a hammer. 
 
"What about darkness, professor. Is there such a
thing as darkness?" 
 
"Yes," the professor replies without hesitation.
"What is night if it isn't darkness?" 
 
"You're wrong again, sir.   Darkness is not
something; it is the absence of something. You can
have low light, normal light, bright light, flashing
light, but if you have no light constantly you have
nothing and it's called darkness, isn't it? That's
the meaning we use to define the word. In reality,
darkness isn't. If it were, you would be able to
make darkness darker, wouldn't you?" 
 
The professor begins to smile at the student in
front of him. This will be a good semester. "So what
point are you making, young man?" 
 
"Yes, professor. My point is, your philosophical
premise is flawed to start with, and so your
conclusion must also be flawed." 
 
The professor's face cannot hide his surprise this
time. "Flawed? Can you explain how?"
 
"You are working on the premise of duality," the
student explains. "You argue that there is life and
then there's death; a good God and a bad God. You
are viewing the concept of God as something finite,
something we can measure. Sir, science can't even
explain a thought. It uses electricity and
magnetism, but has never seen, much less fully
understood either one. To view death as the opposite
of life is to be ignorant of the fact that death
cannot exist as a substantive thing. Death is not
the opposite of life, just the absence of it." 
 
"Now tell me, professor. Do you teach your students
that they evolved from a monkey?"
 
"If you are referring to the natural evolutionary
process, young man, yes, of course I do"
 
"Have you ever observed evolution with your own
eyes, sir?" 
 
The professor begins to shake his head, still
smiling, as he realizes where the argument is going.
A very good semester, indeed. 
 
"Since no one has ever observed the process of
evolution at work and cannot even prove that this
process is an on-going  endeavour, are you not
teaching your opinion, sir? Are you now not a
scientist, but a preacher?" 
 
The class is in uproar. The student remains silent
until the commotion has subsided. 
 
"To continue the point you were making earlier to
the other student, let me give you an example of
what I mean." 
 
The student looks around the room. "Is there anyone
in the class who has ever seen the professor's
brain?" The class breaks out into laughter. 
 
"Is there anyone here who has ever heard the
professor's brain, felt the professor's brain,
touched or smelled the professor's brain?   No one
appears to have done so. So, according to the
established rules of empirical, stable, demonstrable
protocol, science says that you have no brain, with
all due respect, sir.   So if science says you have
no brain, how can we trust your lectures, sir?" 
 
Now the room is silent. The professor just stares at
the student, his face unreadable. 
 
Finally, after what seems an eternity, the old man
answers. "I guess you'll have to take them on
faith." 
 
"Now, you accept that there is faith, and, in fact,
faith exists with life," the student continues.
"Now, sir, is there such a thing as evil?" 
 
Now uncertain, the professor responds, "Of course,
there is. We see it everyday. It is in the daily
example of man's inhumanity to man. It is in the
multitude of crime and violence everywhere in the
world. These manifestations are nothing else but
evil." 
 
To this the student replied, "Evil does not exist
sir, or at least it does not exist unto itself. Evil
is simply the absence of God. It is just like
darkness and cold, a word that man has created to
describe the absence of God. 
 
God did not create evil. Evil is the result of what
happens when man does not have God's love present in
his heart. It's like the cold that comes when there
is no heat or the darkness that comes when there is
no light." 
 
The professor sat down.

If I had been the professor I should have answered that yes, we can see evolution happening, from the humble fruit fly to the artificial evolution of the greyhounds, horses, pigeons etc. and to the fossil evidence of the reptilian jaw evolving into the mammalian jaw.

Also, I would have pointed out the faulty premise of the light and dark analogy. While it is true that darkness is not a thing in itself but is just the absence of light it would be folly to say that evil is the absence of God as, unlike the dark and light example, we cannot prove the existence of God as we can with light.

The whole thing about good and evil can be disproved with a simple anti-theisis. Namely:

If you can claim evil is simply the lack of good, why can't you claim good is simply the lack of evil?

The student is wrong about evolution, since there is evidence of it. Good and evil are just words. Good can be shown by compassion, thoughts for another. Apes show good in their personality. They show compassion and show suffering from another beings pain.
Good is a word, But it's meaning is on action.

The professor on the first part was debating them on a mythological stand point and the student was debating him on the scientific stand point. Though the student did make a few errors and had a weak argument.

This argument can be used for the flying spaghetti monster.

"Spaghetti monster did not create evil. Evil is the result of what
happens when man does not have the flying spaghetti monsters love present in
his heart."

The flying spaghetti monster, Flying pink invisible unicorn ec ect are theists worst nightmare. It destroys their arguments completely.

The Flying Spaghetti Monster is by far the most powerful argument against theism because it uses their own tactic against them. They tried to answer questions by putting an eternal being as the answer (with no actual explanation), so we came up with our own

I liked that. Both arguments had there flaws, obviously, but so does every argument.

Exactly. It's because they have no evidence that we can just step in and make our own imagination that mimics theirs in every way which in turn defeats their arguments.

All hail the flying spaghetti monster! The Atheists ally!

Like yours.

Which one?